Chrono Cross
The Dead Sea/Sea of Eden (and Other Story) FAQ
Version 1.1
23 May 2001
compiled by bubblebobby2000
bubble@singmail.com
=======================================================================
i. Contents
=======================================================================
i. Contents
ii. Revision History
iii. Notices and Credits
iv. Abbreviations
1. Introduction
2. Timeline
3. Serge and The Destruction of The World
4. Time Split and Science
5. Perpetuating Time Loops
6. Dead Sea
7. Salt for the Dead Sea
8. Dead Sea Evaporated
9. In The Unified Timeline
10. Other Theories
11. Other Discussions
12. A Proposed Story Outline
13. Conclusion
=======================================================================
ii. Revision History
=======================================================================
23 May 2001 Minor changes to the introduction.
Also changed the title to reflect the focus of this
FAQ. It's now been named
"The Dead Sea/Sea of Eden (and Other Story) FAQ."
I've also added several other theories that were brought
up and have not been included in the FAQ:
Kid/Lucca theory by "Miguel"
Lavos and Serge by "One That Was"
01 May 2001 First version released.
=======================================================================
iii. Notices and Credits
=======================================================================
This FAQ would not have been possible without the contributions of the
following people.
"Halbarad", especially for starting of the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread,
all the others who took part in the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden discussion (in
alphabetical order): "Captain Pmp", "CygnusZ", "jason79", "Gilbes,"
"Leebot", "Miguel", "One That Was", "skane" and all the others that I
might have left out.
"Sheamon", for the complete game script that allowed us to pick up the
necessary evidence as an when needed,
"Terrageist", "Crono228", for the first ever story guide on Chrono
Cross.
Chrono Cross, the plots, and the quoted scripts found in this FAQ are
copyright of Squaresoft.
I only claim credit for my own theories and the compilation of this
FAQ. The other theories belong to their respective owners.
=======================================================================
iv. Abbreviations
=======================================================================
Here are some of the abbreviations used in the discussions on the Dead
Sea / Sea of Eden thread on GameFAQs.
AW Another World
CCU Chrono Cross Ultimania Guide
CP Chronopolis
DOL Day of Lavos
DP Dinopolis
EXPLAIN Explanation
FF Frozen Flame
HW Home World
POST Posting on the Dead Sea / Sea of Eden thread
PROM Prometheus
QU Quantum Universe
SCENE Scene from the game as evidence
SCRIPT Script from the game as evidence
TD Time Devourer
There are many reasons why Chrono Cross has such a convoluted plot,
which I will not dwell into. But the loose ends in Chrono Cross led to
a couple of interesting threads on the GameFAQs messageboard. In
particular, it was the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread which had over 460+
posts on fantastic ideas and theories and minimal flaming. Most of the
discussions focused on how and why the Dead Sea in Home World in
formed.
But because it had grown so large, it was becoming quite impossible for
anyone who just joined the discussion, or anyone who wishes to
understand the discussions, to sieve through every single post without
getting confused in the end. Hence, there's the motivation for this
FAQ, which promises to sort out the discussions and analysis. But I do
not make promises that you will not have headache after reading this.
8)
This FAQ does not attempt to give a definite answer to the loopholes in
the game. The FAQ is merely a compilation of the discussions and
theories in the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread, and also possibly in some
other threads.
>From here on, the reader is encouraged to read with an open mind. =)
PS: Oh... and you should really stop reading now if you do not want to
be spoiled. There is nothing but complete SPOILERS here!
Before I go into the theories, let us take a look at the timeline of
the major events that occurred before the game of Chrono Cross.
I have also included script evidence from the game itself to explain
the timeline. From here, you can see what I meant when I said that the
plot was not revealed in order. The plot revelation was scattered
throughout the entire game. If we piece together and rearrange the
various clues in chronological order, we can actually see that the
story of Chrono Cross is fairly easy to understand.
Enough talk, here goes the timeline. And no, you don't need aspirin. 8)
before SCRIPT: Chronopolis Specter:
2400AD "After we discovered an unusual gravitational field
in this barren sea of El Nido, we build several
artificial islands and established Chronopolis."
* Unusual gravitational field detected in El Nido seas
2400AD SCRIPT: Belthasar:
"Well, that researched to the creation of
Chronopolis and to the Time Crash..."
SCRIPT: Kid:
"In the year 2400, during a counter-time
experiment, the Flame goes out of control... This
causes the dimensions to rip apart, resultin' in
the Time Crash."
* Belthasar's research led to the Counter-Time experiment
* Counter-Time experiment fails
* Time Crash occurs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TIME CRASH
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
7600BC SCRIPT: Kid:
"Perhaps it was the awakenin' Lavos who pulled the
Frozen Flame back through time to it. [snipped]
Perhaps our planet beckoned Dinopolis into the
past..."
SCRIPT: Belthasar:
"Dinopolis was drawn into this dimension's past
about ten thousand years ago... This was done so
that it would serve as a counter-balance against
Chronopolis, which Lavos pulled here."
SCRIPT: Chronopolis Specter
"The El Nido Archipelago is purely artificial,
created by FATE. It was a remodeling plane that
took place 10000 years ago."
SCRIPT: Chronopolis Specter
"The distortion of memory terminal devices called
the Records of Fate that could survey and guide
people's lives... The research center staff, who
had their memories erased, left the center, and
began a life outside amidst nature."
* Researchers leave El Nido
* FATE installs records of FATE to guide El Nido people.
1006AD SCRIPT: Miguel:
"According to the time outside, it's been about 14
years since the night of the storm..."
SCRIPT: Marge:
"It may have all started 14 years ago... On the
night of the storm..."
SCRIPT: Dark Serge/Lynx:
"14 years ago, on the night of a terrible storm,
the cogs began to turn. That night, Wazuki and
Miguel set out to sea carrying a sick, young child
in their boat. That child was you, Serge, after you
had been attacked by that panther demon."
* Serge bitten by panther demon
* Wazuki+Miguel sailed out with Serge to seek medical help
SCRIPT: Lucca:
"Led by the pitiful crying the young Serge made as
the panther demon's poison took hold of him...
Princess Schala traveled ten thousand years in time
to try and make contact with this dimension! This
caused a raging magnetic storm that resulted in
FATE's system malfunction, which led Serge to the
Frozen Flame."
SCRIPT: Belthasar:
"The child the others created on the night of the
electric storm that temporarily caused FATE to
loosen its hold on them... I believe you knew her
as... Harle."
* Seal of Dragons disrupted
* Dragons create seventh dragon, Harle.
SCRIPT: Crono:
"FATE turned Wazuki into a biological interface,
modelling him after your worst fear at the time –
a panther. Although Wazuki managed to escape from
Chronopolis with you, he later succumbed to FATE."
1010AD SCRIPT: Crono:
"Ten years ago, it was Lynx who tried to kill you
at this beach."
* Lynx kills Serge at Opassa Beach
SCRIPT: Belthasar:
"10 years ago, something happened that put your
very soul teetering on the balancing scales of
fate... with a fifty-fifty chance of life or death!
This is when your future was split in twain."
=======================================================================
3. Serge and The Destruction of The World
=======================================================================
The Chrono Trigger, The Assassin of Time
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCRIPT: "We... No... Everyone worked to save the planet's future for
nothing... It's all because of you! You killed it!" - Lucca
SCRIPT: "How could you? How could you do such a thing...!? It's all
your fault that the world is going to end up like this! It's
all your fault, Serge!!! Murderer!!!" – Marle
SCRIPT: "But the future that was supposed to have disappeared is about
to be restored here... The future destruction of our planet is
going to become a reality in this world once again..." – Marle
SCRIPT: "The vengeance of the future we killed is about to begin...
With Serge serving as the trigger..." - Crono
When the player reaches the Dead Sea in Chrono Cross, the Chrono
Trigger kids will hint that Serge is actually the trigger for the dead
future. But exactly how does Serge trigger the end of the world? This
was not properly explained in the game.
This point was brought up for discussion in the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden
thread. And there are three main lines of thoughts:
Theory Author in the Thread
1. Descendants in Home World "bubblebobby2000"
2. Contact with the Frozen Flame "jason79"
3. Lavos and Serge "One That Was"
4. Binding with the Time Devourer Chrono Cross Ultimania Guide
Let me summarize them here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 1: Descendants in Home World (by "bubbblebobby2000")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
When Serge survived in Home World, his actions there could have
unconsciously caused some major repercussions down the timeline into
the future in 1999AD, nullifying Crono+co's effort in defeating Lavos.
Let me just state an example. Albeit its silliness, it does get the
point across.
In Home World:
Serge lives. One day, he unintentionally match made Kiki + Lolo in Arni
village. Kiki + Lolo eventually got married and spawns off descendants.
And one of their descendants name, Nono, was a general in 1999AD. When
Lavos appeared in 1999AD, Crono+co time time warped to it and fought
it. But before Crono+co could kill it, General Nono, descendant of Kiki
+ Lolo, made a silly decision to fire some weapons straight at Lavos.
The weapons killed Crono+co, but not Lavos. Now that Lavos had no one
to kill it, went on to destroy the world like it did in Chrono Trigger.
Hence the bleak future reigned in Home World.
In Another World:
Serge died. Since he did, he never match-maded Kiki + Lolo. Nobody
matchmade them. So they never got married. And General Nono was never
born. And the silly decision of firing weapons to kill Lavos was never
made, and Crono+co never died. So Lavos was successfully destroyed. And
the bright future reigned in Another World.
Weak Areas
~~~~~~~~~~
This theory actually depends on the very fact that Crono+co will be
there in 1999AD to defeat Lavos. But for those who have played Chrono
Trigger knows that this is an unwarranted assumption. Lavos could have
been beaten at anytime from 12000BC – 1999AD.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 2: Contact with the Frozen Flame (by "jason79")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
The game also blames [the Dead Sea's] creation on Serge, although we
know it's rather a sequence of events now made possible due to his
living presence. So, the question is, what possible events could have
been precipitated by his living that would result in the Sea of Eden
turning into the Dead Sea?
The obvious first event would have to be that the Flame can now be
unlocked. Serge was made the arbiter of the Flame in 1006, when he
first came into contact with and was healed by it. Unfortunately, we
don't have enough information to extrapolate at this point exactly how
the unlocking of the Flame would lead to the pre-emption of Crono's
defeat of Lavos. But that will wait. Let's just go with the idea for
now that Lavos' defeat had suddenly been nullified."
Weak Areas
~~~~~~~~~~
We are not sure exactly how the unlocking of the Flame would lead to
the destruction of the world.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 3: Lavos and Serge (by "One That Was")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
(editor's notes:
This theory was added in very late. So it did not spark off a lot of
discussions for "One That Was" to be able to refine it. I will post
exactly what he posted on the GameFAQs message board.)
Here are the events as they happened in each world, and an explanation
on how it effects Serge and Lavos's survival.
Another World
7600BC Chronopolis/Dinopolis Appear.
Battle ensues, Chronopolis Wins.
1000AD Crono and Crew Time Travel into the future, 2400AD
1003AD Serge is Born
1006AD Serge Bitten By Panther Demon, Healed by FF,
Becomes "Arbiter"/ Chrono Trigger
1007AD-1009AD
Lynx Created to Kill Serge
1010AD Serge Drowned - Time Split Occurs
1011AD-1019AD
Sea of Eden still exists.
1999AD Crono and Crew Kill Lavos.
1999AD (Day of Lavos occurs)
Guardia Dome is first to react to the coming of Lavos.
Arris Dome is under Gaurdia Rule. (THEORETICAL)
2300AD (Original CT Timeline)
Crono and Crew View Day of Lavos on Computer in Arris Dome.
2400AD (New Future)
Chronopolis Thrown Back in Time to 76,000 BC
Now in this Dimension, Because Serge Died in 1010, The Frozen Flame is
Stabilized and doesn't cause the Formation of the Dead Sea. Also,
because Serge is Dead, the Immediate Death of Crono and Crew isn't
necessary. Because Crono and Crew haven't been killed yet, they still
may have an impact on Future events. For example, they might lead the
rebellion against Porre and Reinstate Guardia Kingdom, which allows
Guardia Dome and Arris Dome to exist in the Future. Which in turn,
allows Crono and Crew to see the coming of Lavos on the Arris Dome
Computer. No Gaurdia Kingdom, No Arris Dome. So, Because of Serge's
death, Lavos Gets killed and isn't allowed to exist, period. All this
happens in the "True" Dimension, Another World.
Home World
7600BC Chronopolis/Dinopolis Appears.
Battle ensues, Chronopolis wins.
1000AD Crono and Crew Time travel to the future, 2400 AD
1003AD Serge is Born
1006AD Serge is bitten by Panther Demon, Healed by FF,
Becomes "Arbiter"/Chrono Trigger.
1007AD-1009AD
Lynx Created to Kill Serge.
1010AD Serge Almost Drowns.
Lavos/Schala Intervenes, Serge is saved.
Time Split occurs.
1011-1019AD
Frozen Flame goes Haywire (THEORETICAL).
Dead Sea is formed.
1999AD Crono and Crew DO NOT kill Lavos.
Day of Lavos occurs.
Gaurdia Dome/Arris Dome Don't exist.
2300AD Crono and crew arrive here, but DO NOT see the coming of Lavos.
Arris Dome does not exist.
2400AD Chronopolis doesn't exist.
Natural time gets messed up,
Formation of Dead Sea occurs in 1011-1019 (THEORETICAL).
Now in this Dimension, Because Lavos intervenes and causes Serge to
live, The Frozen Flame becomes unstable and causes the Dead Sea to Form
by taking parts of the "REAL" future as well as the "Dead" future and
clashing them together. Also, The formation of the Dead Sea Causes Lynx
to Try getting in by aiding in the death of the CT crew, and Killing
the Acacia Dragoons as well. In the Attempt, Lynx Dies, so Serge is
still able to live. Because Crono and Crew are no Longer Present, Porre
Takes over, Guardia is Never Reinstated, and Arris Dome never exists.
Which causes Crono and Crew of 1000 AD to never see the Coming of Lavos
in 2300 AD, and so, Lavos is allowed to Live in the Home World
Dimension. In this way, Serge acts as The "Chrono Trigger", and causes
the natural Flow of time to change, allowing Lavos to exist, even if
it's only between the Dimensions.
Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Crono and Crew defeated Lavos in the year 1999.
2. Crono and Crew have a big Impact on future events, after 1020 AD.
3. Crono and crew are not Dead in Another World.
4. Guardia Kingdom Become Guardia Dome in 1999 AD, and Arris Dome is
Ruled By Guardia.
Inconsistencies
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here I'm going to list any inconsistencies that I can see in my own
theory, and arguments to defend against them, if any.
1. How Can Chronopolis exsist in Home world 7600 BC, and yet not exist
in 2400?
Well, because in the "REAL" dimension, or Another World,
Chronopolis does exist, and the Dead Sea Only exsists after Lavos'
intervention in Another World, Chronopolis exists up until the
Time Split actually occurred. The Time split created a few
inconsistencies in time, and soon after it occurred, The Dead Sea
Formed because of one of these inconsistencies.
(editor's notes:
refer to Section 6 Dead Sea for some theories on the formation of
the Dead Sea.)
2. If Crono and Crew are alive in Another World after 1020 AD, then
Why Does Lynx Say they're Dead. And Why Do the Ghost Children Say
they are Dead?
Lynx can say all he wants to say. It doesn't Change the Fact that
He's the bad Guy, and can we really trust him? About the Ghost
Children. They only appear in 3 places.
A - The Dead Sea. The Dead Sea is in home world, and according to
the Theory, they are in fact Dead in Home World.
B - Opassa Beach. Also in Home World.
C - Terra Tower, Another World. Keep in Mind that they Only appear
in Belthasar's Library in Terra Tower. Belthasar says himself
that the "Library" is actually a space out of time, ie a
separate Dimension from Another World. So in truth, they are
appearing in a 3rd Dimension, Not Home World.
3. Chrono and Crew MAY not have defeated Lavos in 1999 AD. But then
again, they may have....
4. Guardia Dome Might Not Have been an actual Place in CT. I'm Basing
this off of memory, so unless someone Knows For sure whether or not
it is, this is THEORETICAL.
5. Crono and Crew may not play an important role in the natural Flow
of Time, ie Reinstate Guardia Kingdom. This is ENTIRELY
THEORETICAL. It relies on future events that we can't possibly know
of.
6 The Formation of the Dead Sea is something that nobody knows for
sure about. This is merely a theory on how it may have formed, not
fact. Again, THEORETICAL.
(editor's notes:
But as I read it, I found some small problems with it. "One That Was"
states that in 2300AD, in Another World, Crono+co gets to see Day of
Lavos in the bright future, yet in Home World, Crono+co do not get to
see the Day of Lavos. I am not sure if this is an inconsistency here.
Secondly, it was not Lynx who said Crono+co were dead. It was Miguel
who did.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 4: Binding with the Time Devourer
(by Chrono Cross Ultimania Guide)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
SCRIPT: "The one who connects with the Frozen Flame, in effect, links
with Lavos itself. As the mediator between Lavos and living
things, that one will gain extraordinary powers! By binding
with the new seed of destruction... the "Devourer of Time!"
– Belthasar
SCRIPT: "In the far-off future, when the fusion becomes complete, IT
will awaken... Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume
all space-time continua..." - Belthasar
What did Belthasar mean when he said "binding" with the Time Devourer?
This is what is said in the Chrono Cross Ultimania Guide, under the
section that explains the story:
"Home World is the irregular world that FATE was unable to control. In
this world, the Dead Sea exists instead of the Sea of Eden. This is
because, in the future on the time axis which Serge survived, is the
other future where Chronopolis does not exist. That is to say that the
scene that one can see in the Dead Sea is just waiting to happen. That
is the meaning it portrays. And the scene that was developed in the
Dead Sea, is the true form of the future that Crono and company should
have avoided (=killed), the future that was destroyed. In other words,
it is indicated in this place that, in the case if Serge were to
survive, the world will probably be destroyed.
"This is related to Serge being and "Arbiter." At the point in time
when Serge continues to survive, and at the point in time when Serge
visits the Dead Sea, because the possibility of him being absorbed into
the Time Devourer and landing the world to destruction is high, this
vision of the future is born. But, the future that is shown in this
place is a fluid-like and highly unstable. The Dead Sea's form will
transform to what form the future takes, according to Serge's actions
hereafter.
"The fusion of the Time Devourer becomes complete, when the one who can
free the Time Devourer, the body of the Arbiter is absorbed into in.
Because of this, when Serge survives and does not free the Time
Devourer, the world will lead to destruction in the near future. But,
even if Serge dies, the Time Devourer nesting at the darkness of time
continues its fusion, the world will still be eventually destroyed in
the far off future. As long as Serge does not free the Time Devourer
with the Chrono Cross, there will be no future."
Weak Areas
~~~~~~~~~~
POST: "Miguel":
"We know that Serge defeats (or at least seperates) the Time
Devourer at the end. If this is so, he didn't merge right?
Therefore this means no bad future. Therefore, how was the
Dead Sea even there if the future it came from didn't exist?"
As we all know, Serge did NOT merge with the Time Devourer at the end
of the game. (Who in the right mind would do that? =P) If that's the
case, that means the future should not be devoured by the Time
Devourer. And the Dead Sea should not appear as it is.
=======================================================================
4. Time Split and Science
=======================================================================
When did Time Split?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conflicting evidences. In the face of three pieces of conflicting
evidence in the game, the exact point in which time split is highly
arguable.
SCRIPT: Belthasar:
"10 years ago, something happened that put your very soul
teetering on the balancing scales of fate... with a fifty-
fifty chance of life or death! This is when your future was
split in twain."
Here, Belthasar says Serge's future was split in twain in 1010AD.
SCRIPT: Chronopolis Specter:
"Two worlds that are so close, and yet so far in nature, exist
in different dimensions. [snipped] Under the surveillance of
the main computer of Chronopolis... "FATE." In other words,
FATE, has always been observing the 2 parallel worlds, and
guiding them. An instruction to the young girl in Arni 01 to
give up going to the main continent as a poet. An instruction
to the man in Arni 02 to give up becoming a fisherman. A plan
to avoid any point of contact with the main continent, so as
not to affect history. However.... Ever since the formation of
the Dead Sea 10 years ago... FATE has been unable to intervene
directly with World 01."
The key statement is: "Ever since the formation of the Dead Sea 10
years ago... FATE has been unable to intervene directly with World 01."
This little phrase actually suggests that time might have split long
before 1010AD, and the two worlds were actually vastly different even
before Serge lived/died.
SCRIPT: Lucca:
"As Schala fell through the time gate in this condition, she
heard your crying echoing through time... That is when her
story and yours began to intertwine... It is also when the
past and the future began to intersect, and when the world
became divided into two..."
This muddies everything again. Was it in 12000AD when Schala fell into
the time gate? Was it in 1006AD when Serge's pitiful crying touched
Schala's heart?
Granted, only one the three pieces of evidence has a specific stated to
it. That is Belthasar's who specifically mentioned that some splitting
occured in 1010AD. And most of us on the Dead Sea / Sea of Eden thread
agree that time did split in 1010AD. In other words, there were two
worlds, Home World and Another World. The difference between these two
worlds started only after 1010AD.
Time Splits and Quantum Mechanics
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are there finite or infinite parallel universes? In any case, quantum
mechanics have been brought up in the Dead Sea / Sea of Eden thread. So
I think it's worth to put those information here.
POST: "CygnusZ":
"Well, I guess alternate timelines could fall into two
theories. One is that one of the entities is delibratly
causing branching events into alternate realities so that they
can interact and create a certain desried outcome by mixing
and matching the realites... I don't really like that theory
because it hurts my head :) I'd have to say that an infinite
number of realities exist, and thus no one creates them, all
possibilties can exist at any time."
POST: "jason79"
"Actually, you guys are speaking of the Many Worlds
Interpretation of quantum mechanics. Basically, it states that
for every possible outcome of an event, each outcome occurs
but in separate dimensions. In other worlds, if this
interpretation is correct (obviously, it has yet to be
proven), then we truly live in a multiverse, in an infinity of
dimensions.
"But I digress. The dimensional splits in Trigger and Cross
are caused by temporal divergeances. In other words, a new
universe is created whenever someone screws with history. The
best example is Kid rescuing Serge. History records that Serge
drowned, but Kid rescued him anyway; ergo, we have two
universes, Home and Another, the duplicate and the original."
In a later post, "halbarad" and later "jason79" brought in quantum
mechanics to explain the difference universes caused by the temporal
divergences. I will include "jason79"'s post here because his
explanations contained some drawings that made it easier to understand.
POST: "jason79":
"Crono sees 2300AD. Crono goes and defeats Lavos, changing
history, so a parallel dimension has to split off to prevent a
paradox. That's the first major branch.
(Lavos)
1000AD------1999AD-----2300AD (QU1, CT Universe)
|
1000AD------1999AD-----2300AD (QU2, New Universe, )
(No Lavos) ( saved by Crono)
We have to make the assumption that Square wasn't really
thinking, and that Crono didn't actually save his world's
future, although he and the others are now a part of this new
parallel world.
We know now that 2300AD will actually continue on into at
least 2400AD, a peaceful future [in QU2]. At some point
between the two years, Chronopolis is created, and in 2400AD
the Counter-Time Experiment takes place. Chronopolis is
[pulled] from 2400AD and banished to the year 7600BC, 10,000
years ago.
(no CP, DP) (No Lavos)
7600BC---------------1000AD-----1999AD-----2400AD (QU2)
|
7600BC---------------1000AD-----1999AD-----2400AD (QU3)
(CP, DP) (No Lavos)
Since Dinopolis is apparently pulled back at the same time, to
the same time, we can disregard another branching of universes
due to its appearance; we can combine the two cities' arrival
as a single event.
To summarize, in QU3, [in 1006AD] Serge is poisoned and
becomes the Arbiter; Prometheus seals the Flame, while Wazuki
is infected by Lynx; and four years later, Serge drowns on
Opassa Beach, cause unknown (there's conflicting evidence).
Sometime outside of the normal passage of time, Schala was
able to disrupt FATE in 1006AD, allowing Serge to be healed by
the Flame, and was able to create Kid. Presumably, Kid's sent
back to 1004AD at that very moment; if not, it's irrelevant.
(CP,DP) (No Kid) (No Lavos)
7600BC-----1004AD------1999AD---2400AD (QU3)
|
7600BC-----1004AD------1999AD---2400AD (QU4, Another World)
(CP,DP) (Kid) (No Lavos)
If I'm not mistaken, QU4 is where we finally meet Another
World, because now all the elements are in place for the
events of Chrono Cross. Assuming that Serge's rescue of Kid
either affected history or else was truly an optional
sidequest, that leaves us with exactly one more timesplit:
1010AD.
Kid from Another World travels back to 1010AD sometime after
CC's events and rescues Serge from drowning. This splits the
universe again, resulting in QU5, or Home World, the timeline
that was never meant to be. According to CC, Serge's presence
somehow indirectly prevents the defeat of Lavos, resulting in
the return of the destroyed 2300AD.
(Kid) (No Serge)(No Lavos) (Good Future)
1004AD---1010AD----1999AD-----2400AD (QU4, Another World)
|
1004AD---1010AD----1999AD-----2400AD (QU5, Home World)
(Kid) (Serge) (Lavos) (Bad Future)
We know from CC that this new, revived dead (oxymoron?) future
will be summoned into the past by Lavos, just as Chronopolis
was. There's two ways now of looking at this split: A. Another
and Home have identical yet separate histories (as quantum
mechanics would indicate), or B. Another and Home have the
exact same history, that their universe literally splits in
two in 1010AD. Either way, the fact that the dead future is
summoned to the past is a problem. If this dead future slice
lands on top of Chronopolis before El Nido is created, we get
stuck in a paradox."
QU1 – Chrono Trigger Universe
Where the events in the game Chrono Trigger occured.
QU1 -> QU2 - After Crono+co defeats Lavos
QU2 - Timeline with a new future, Crono+co returns here.
QU2 -> QU3 - Result of the Time Crash
Chronopolis and Dinopolis pulled back in time.
QU3 - Timeline with El Nido in place.
Serge was born in 1003AD, but dies in 1006AD,
without Schala's intervention.
QU3 -> QU4 - Schala interferes.
She creates Kid and at the same time saves Serge.
QU4 - Chrono Cross's Another World
Serge was chosen as the Arbiter
But Lynx kills him in 1010AD
QU4 -> QU5 - Another Kid jumps back in time to save Serge in 1010AD.
QU5 - Chrono Cross's Home World
Serge lives from 1010AD
Future??? Uncertain – different theories interpret
The future differently.
=======================================================================
5. Perpetuating Time Loop
=======================================================================
One point brought up during the discussion in the Dead Sea / Sea of
Eden thread was the existence of Chronopolis in a continuous time loop.
POST: "bubblebobby2000":
"dun forget CC was never scientifically correct to begin with.
If Chronopolis was drawn back in time to 10000 years ago, and
it exists till 2400AD and then it gets drawn back again in an
infinite loop, Chronopolis can never exist at all. (the
Chronopolis walls will rot, decompose, and crumble so fast,
you'll never get to see it exist for even a nanosecond)"
Assuming that Chronopolis existed in the Sea of Eden in 2400AD, and
Lavos pulled it back to the exact same spot in 7600BC, then the
timeline would look something like this.
Lavos pulls Chronopolis
+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+
| |
| |
V Chronopolis exists in Sea of Eden |
---o>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>o----
7600BC 1020AD 2400AD
And Chronopolis would keep going round and round and round. But since
Chronopolis is a physical building, there was no way that it could
exist in an infinite loop without it dilapidating under climate
influences.
However, a very good argument was put up to resolve this perpetuating
time loop paradox.
POST: "jason79":
"Something else that some people apparently are still confused
on: Chronopolis is not in a self-perpetuating timeloop.
Chronopolis is built sometime between 2300~2400AD; it is NOT
found in the Sea of Eden where it landed in the past. This is
as old a paradox as the Grandfather Paradox. Chronopolis is a
physical building; given enough time, it will decay to
nothing. If it were in such a loop, where it's summoned to the
past, survives from 7600BC back up to 2400AD, and gets
summoned again, the rest of the world would see Chronopolis
instantly turn to rubble and ash, because for the world, that
period of 10,000 years only happens once; but for Chronopolis,
it lives that 10,000 years over and over and over. But that
would result in a paradox, which we know did not happen.
Therefore the only logical conclusion to draw is that sometime
after Chrono Cross, something happens to wipe out any possible
evidence of Chronopolis's fate so that the scientists in
2400AD perform their actions exactly as they did the first
time. If they decide to do something different, because they
saw what would happen to the city, then they might not perform
the experiment, and then we're really in a paradox. Or, if you
like, imagine that Chronopolis is built in an entirely
different area in 2400AD, somewhere away from the Sea of Eden,
so that there's no way they could find out about their fate;
then there's no chance of a paradox, even if Chronopolis still
existed there. But the point is that the Chronopolis we see in
Chronopolis has already been summoned once; whatever else
happens, it cannot be summoned to the past again, period."
If, like what "jason79" mentioned, Chronopolis was originally built in
an area far away from the Sea of Eden, then no perpetuating time loop
will occur. But even if it was built and drawn back to the same spot,
the loop can be easily resolved by annihilating Chronopolis and
rebuilding it later, as shown in the diagram below.
=======================================================================
6. Dead Sea
=======================================================================
Year of Formation of the Dead Sea
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Three pieces of conflicting evidence:
SCRIPT: Marge:
"Back then, that place wasn't called the Dead Sea...Yes, I
believe they called it "Sea of Eden" ... That was 14 years
ago."
Was it 1006AD (14 years ago)?
SCRIPT: Radius:
"The Dead Sea... That ocean was called the Sea of Eden until 3
years ago..."
Or was it 1017AD (3 years ago)?
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"For 14 years... It wasn't like this when I got here,
though... An incident that occured 10 years ago, transformed
it into the Dead Sea."
Was it 1010AD (10 years ago)?
Most of us on the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread agree that the Dead Sea
was formed exactly 10 years ago, immediately when time split into
Another and Home World. The reason being, Miguel, who lived in the Dead
Sea for 14 years, actually knows what happens in there, and hence his
credibility is the highest.
What Led to the Formation of the Dead Sea?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One question that was not very well answered in the game how the Dead
Sea actually formed. And why it was actually focused into one single
point in the Sea of Eden. And why did it only form in 1010AD?
Coincidence? Nature? Or intervention? This is a major point of contend
in the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread on GameFAQs. Since this FAQ aims to
compile the discussions, it is also a major discussion in this FAQ.
All theories, however simple, or complex, however fantasy or
scientific, all tries to address these problems:
1. How did the Dead Sea form?
1. Why does the Dead Sea only occupy as large as the Sea of Eden?
2. Why did it form in 1010AD and not any other time?
Here's a rehash of the Quantum Universe 4 and 5 (QU4, Another World;
QU5, Home World), considering only the important epochs in time.
Most of the theories are somehow based on the QU4/QU5 timeline as shown
above.
In addition, I will also include the nature of the theory presented.
There are two basic natures.
1. Natural.
It means that the result of the Dead Sea was a naturally occuring
event.
2. Intervention by mindful entity.
It means that the result of the Dead Sea involved the intervention
of some entity (other than Serge or the Time Devourer).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 1: The Prometheus/Day of Lavos (by "Miguel")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nature of Theory: Intervention by a mindful entity.
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, as we can see the Dead Sea is in a bit of a mess. It is clear
that it comes from sometime in the future. It is also clear that it
does not belong in the eastern part of El Nido, that someone/something
has pulled it back. Now... I believe this is part of 1999AD and it was
Prom who pulled it back. This "pulling back" only applies to Home,
since it is Home's past which is threatened by the Serge/wrecked future
paradox.
Naturally Prometheus (or Robo if you want to call him that) would want
to prevent the ruined future, as well as the resulting paradox.
(Because he is "buddy buddy" with mankind) How could he accomplish
this? He would snag "Lavos/unspecified threat" before it surfaced in
1999AD (accidently pulling some of the surroundings with it - hence
Leene's Square and the city) back to the Sea of Eden in 1010AD, at the
point when it became a threat to history (due to the division of the
timelines happening at that point), which would of course destroy
Home's CP as short change in the bargain. And seal the Flame off for
good in Home...
Hence the Dead Sea is part 1999AD Truce City, part 1010AD Chronoplis.
Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Serge's survival causes Chrono Trigger's Crono+co's effort against
Lavos to be nullified.
2. Prometheus has control over the Flame to pull the Day of Lavos
back.
Contradictory Evidence and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCENE: The "Company 2400" Sign
EXPLAIN: Inconclusive evidence.
The '2400' may not indicate the year. Furthermore, this sign
may just have been part of Chronopolis.
SCRIPT: Computer in Dead Sea:
"2300AD"
"Lithosphere Investigation Report"
"- Report no. 27 –"
"[Unknown Life Force, Parasitic to the Planet]"
"Geologic Stratum Result - 65,000,000 B.C."
"Code – 'Lavos'"
Norris:
"2300 A.D.? You mean... a ruin from the future?"
EXPLAIN: Inconclusive evidence.
Even if 2300AD report appeared in one of the towers, it
could have been part of Chronopolis. Note that Belthasar
has the ability to travel across dimensions, so it is
possible that have might have obtained the report from the
dimension with the bleak future.
It could also have been an easter egg. =)
Scientific Fallacies and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Discussion
~~~~~~~~~~
POST-Q: "bubblebobby2000":
"why Prometheus drew Day of Lavos back during or after it
occured?"
ANSWER: No. Prometheus drew Day of Lavos before it occured to prevent
the timeline after 1999AD to turn into a bleak future. Hence
Chronopolis can still exist in Home World 2400AD, and it can
still be drawn back in time to 10000 years ago. No chance for
scientific fallacies here.
POST-Q: "bubblebobby2000":
"why Prometheus chose to smash DOL on top of itself, and not
any other places outside of El Nido?"
POST-A: "Miguel":
"Technology from 1999AD is WAY MORE advanced than technology
in 1010AD. Or at least... It would be if Porre hadn't risen
due to Lynx supplying them with hi-tech weaponry...
"Anyhow, bringing Lavos back through time to a populated area
would not be a good idea, c'est ne pas?"
POST-Q: "bubblebobby2000":
"Why not just bring Lavos back when he wakes, and is just
about to shoot his 'fire needles' (cant remember what they are
called). Prom could bring Lavos bring and freeze him in time.
only by doing it this way, Prometheus can ensure that Day of
Lavos will not happen in 1999AD. Lavos frozen and stuck there,
so it can't do anything anyway."
POST-A: "Miguel":
"Maybe he did. Maybe Prom snagged Lavos just when he was about
to wake, and some of the surroundings got caught up with him.
And yes, OF COURSE the Day of Lavos will be prevented by this
happening! That is the WHOLE POINT of Prom doing this."
"Maybe Lavos did partially wake in 1010AD, and that could be
an explanation as to why the landscape looks as it does."
POST-Q: "bubblebobby2000":
"why bring it back to 1010AD? he could have brought back to
1998AD and freeze it there. or he could even have frozen Lavos
in 1999AD in mid air, since he had that much power with the
Frozen Flame to even bring him back in time. he could even
have sent it to 2500AD, then that would definitely ensure
Chronopolis is built in 2400AD, right?"
POST-A: "Miguel"
"No-one in 1998 would be able to manage Lavos, same as No-one
in 1999 could manage him. FATE has a pretty good arsenal, so
it can take Lavos."
"As to why Prom didn't move it to 2500AD, we can only presume
that there a justifiable reason for him doing this. I have a
idea, but I don't want us to sink even further into this
swamp. Prom sent Lavos back to 1010AD, as that was the precise
moment the timelines split and Lavos thus became a danger once
more. I believe that Prom had to act fast to use the CP
equipment, before the Lavos side of the FF cancelled out his
actions and erased him from the picture."
POST-Q: "bubblebobby2000"
"How about the 2300AD records of Day of Lavos? And the company
2400 sign?"
EXPLAIN: They could very well be part of Chronopolis smashed together
with the Day of Lavos ruins.
POST-A: "Miguel":
"Why would Prom take the "threat" to the sea of Eden in
1010AD?"
POST-A: "Miguel":
"A truckload of reasons for that. There are three basic ones:
1) 1010AD was the moment Serge survived in Home and became a
threat. Prom may have acted on the spot.
2) The Sea of Eden is very far from the surrounding
population. Hence, the "threat" would have little time to
cause damage before Another's FATE sealed its doom.
3) Prom may have also intended to use the Dead Sea as a
"vanguard" for the Frozen Flame. Certainly all this
"merging of cities" and "apocalyptic power" would have made
the Flame darn hard for Lynx and Harle to find, which could
have been a bonus for Prom."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 2: Floating Chronopolis (by "Halbarad")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nature of Theory: Natural.
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
POST: "Halbarad":
"My own personal theory (not supported by much in the game,
(unfortunately) is that Chronopolis originally existed in both
worlds simultaneously; in other words, if you knew exactly how to
enter and leave Chronopolis correctly, you could enter from Home
and leave into Another. After Serge contacted the Frozen Flame
(of which there is only one, not two), Prometheus locked out all
access to the Flame, except to the Arbiter (Serge). FATE became
frantic at this point, as its power source was disrupted.
However, it had enough resources still at this point to
'maintain the status quo' in both worlds. When a moment of
quantum uncertainty occurred involving the Arbiter (Serge's
death/near-death by drowning 10 years ago) occurred, the
imbalance created threw Chronopolis and the Flame totally into
Another (leaving Miguel in Home, probably through the actions of
FATE). The gap left by the departing Chronopolis in Home was
filled by random bits of space-time -- from the 'darkness beyond
time' perhaps -- which happened to be from the nullified timeline
in which Lavos destroyed the world in 1999 AD. These components
solidified into what became known as the Dead Sea. (This is the
event 10 years ago that changed the Dead Sea, which Miguel
mentions). With the Flame and Chronopolis (and FATE) on one side
of the dimensional rift and the Arbiter on the other, an
imperfect balance was created that held both worlds steady for
another 10 years, when the actions of Kid at Opassa Beach in
Another, coinciding with Serge's presence there in Home, caused
the formation of the Angelum Errare and the rest, as they say, is
history (or is it?)
Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
1. One single Chronopolis overlooks both worlds. The Chronopolis
shifts into Another World in 1010AD.
Supporting Evidence:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Contradictory Evidence and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Scientific Fallacies and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 3: Time-tunnel (by "bubblebobby2000")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nature of Theory: Natural.
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
This theory, the Prometheus's Time-net, and the Space-Time-Fold theory
makes a very important assumption that explains why the Dead Sea only
occupies the area as big as the Sea of Eden was. The assumption is that
in 2400AD, when the Counter-Time Experiment failed and the Flame went
out of control, a circular dimensional vortex was created. The size of
this dimension vortex was equivalent to the size of the Sea of Eden and
the Dead Sea, like that:
Let's reduce the size of the huge map above to this:
[ o]
The '[ ]' represents the Chrono Cross map, and the 'o' represents the
size of the small Sea of Eden.
When the dimension vortex was opened up, it created a time-tunnel that
connected itself back to 7600BC allowed Chronopolis to slip backwards
to that time. The size of the time-tunnel, was of course only as large
as the small Sea of Eden was.
Time tunnel
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
V ^
----[ o]--------------[ o]--------------[ o]----
7600BC 1010AD 2400AD
Time splits in 1010AD. The time tunnel was duplicated up to the point
where it splits. So we should have something like this:
Time tunnel
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
V ^
----[ o]--------------[ o]--------------[ o]---- (Another)
7600BC 1010AD 2400AD
[ o]--------------[ o]---- (Home)
^ V
oooooooooooooooooooo
Rightfully, everything should have been duplicated at 1010AD. The
Dragon Gods, Chronopolis, Dinopolis, even Kid, Harle and Lynx. But
Serge's survival actually nullified Crono+co's efforts, in effect
causing Day of Lavos to occur in 1999AD.
Time tunnel
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
V ^
----[ o]--------------[ o]----[ o]-----[ o]---- (Another)
7600BC 1010AD 1999AD 2400AD
o
o
o
o DOL Ruins
[ ?]----[ X]-----[ X]---- (Home)
^ V
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Because everything was duplicated in 1010AD, Chronopolis, in the small
Sea of Eden was also duplicated. And the time-tunnel that was
duplicated in Home World drew a chunk of the ruins back from 2400AD. Of
course the size of the ruins drawn back was only as large as the small
Sea of Eden was.
Now then, we have a paradox. Chronopolis was being duplicated in the
small Sea of Eden in 1010AD, and the ruins were getting pulled back to
the small Sea of Eden in 1010AD. This causes the two different slices
to smash together, causing the 'Time Crash', messing up everything
together to form the Dead Sea.
Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Serge's survival causes Chrono Trigger's Crono+co's effort against
Lavos to be nullified.
2. The time-tunnel connected back to as far as when time split in Home
in 1010AD.
Supporting Evidence:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCENE: "COMPANY 2400" sign outside of Tower of Geddon.
It actually hints that the ruins belong to the year 2400AD.
Contradictory Evidence and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Scientific Fallacies and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. There's no reason for the time-tunnel to have ended at 1010AD. If
time was truly duplicated, then the entire history of Another World
must be duplicated into Home World. This also means that the time-
tunnel that was duplicated must end up at 7600BC. If that is so,
then El Nido would not even exist in the first place. (Recall that
Chronopolis MUST land at 7600BC before El Nido is built).
Discussion
~~~~~~~~~~
POST-Q: "jason79":
"The only problem is when Chronopolis is pulled from Home's
2400AD, what makes it land in 1010AD rather than 7600BC?"
POST-A: "bubblebobby2000":
"When Chronopolis was pulled, a 'time gate' or 'time tunnel'
which started in 2400AD forms (IMO), and Chronopolis fell back
in time. In Another world, CP ended up in ~9000BC because the
'time tunnel' ended there. At Home, when the time duplicated,
the duplicated 'time tunnel' was ''severed'' and ended in
1010AD."
POST-Q: "jason79":
"Your picture has Home starting at 1010AD, but that's just not
true. It has a past, which is identical to Another's up until
1010AD."
POST-A: "bubblebobby2000":
"yes, Home has a past that connects back to Another's past.
the only scientific fallacy (which i conveniently but
purposefully threw away ;) ) is that the 'time tunnel'
connected back 1010AD only and not all the way back to
~7600BC."
"the scientific truth of it is that, if the Day of Lavos
really did occur in Home World, basically CP, DP, Serge, El
Nido will never exist at all, and the Dead Sea will or will
not be there. if the Dead Sea is there, then it must exist
from ~9000BC onwards, and not from 1010AD onwards."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 4: Prometheus Time-net (by "jason79")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nature of Theory: Part Natural / Part intervention by a mindful entity.
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
This theory is the merging of theory 1, Prometheus/Day of Lavos and
theory 3, Time-tunnel.
There are some slight differences though. In the original world
(Another World), instead of the time-tunnel being in effect, what
happens is that Lavos pulls Chronopolis back from 2400AD.
Time split in 1010AD. Remember that Home split off from Another, so
they have identical pasts up to 1010AD, but I think I'm safe to say
that Home's Chronopolis is no longer dependant upon a Chronopolis being
summoned from the future, because it's in effect a duplicate; only
Another's Chronopolis is dependant upon being summoned, because it's
within a self-perpetuating timeloop governed by the limits I stated
above concerning the lack of knowledge on the scientists' parts. Think
of Home's Chronopolis as a temporal orphan, if you will.
Lavos pulls Chronopolis
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
V ^
----[ o]--------------[ o]--------------[ o]---- (Another)
7600BC 1010AD 2400AD
| |
| duplicated |
V V
----[ o]---------[ o]
However, the problem comes in when Home's Lavos tries to summon as
well. He's pulling from the same space-time coordinates as his Another
counterpart, but he's gonna get a devastated chunk of the future
instead. The logic continuance of this line of thought is that, when
that chunk of future hits, it's going to be in 7600BC, at the same time
as the duplicate of Chronopolis. This is indeed the Time Crash, because
we have two separate slices of time literally crashing together, the
result being the Dead Sea.
The problem with this is that we now have a paradox. Home's Chronopolis
is no longer dependant upon whatever's summoned from the future, but
Serge and the rest of El Nido are dependant upon Home's Chronopolis
creating the islands, populating them, and surviving long enough for
Serge to come into contact with the Flame; that last is necessary in
order to remain temporally consistent with what we know Home's future
will become. Obviously that's a problem, and equally obviously we know
it didn't happen. The game explicitly says the Dead Sea formed 10 years
ago, i.e. 1010AD.
Let's say Prometheus somehow has control of some power (we'll say it's
the Flame for now). Let's also assume that somehow, Prometheus can
detect the slice of future that's being summoned to the past by Lavos.
It's then plausible that he extrapolated the likely outcome
(Chronopolis and the dead future resulting in the Time Crash), realized
that this would create a serious paradox, and decided to use the Flame
in order to snag the slice of future on its way to the past. We can
assume that Chronopolis in 2400AD was built in the same place as it
appeared in 7600BC, that it never moved around physically. So, when the
city is summoned by Lavos, it only moves through time, not space. All
Prometheus would have to do is effectively throw out a time net (or use
the Flame as a temporal magnet, or whatever explanation floats your
boat) and catch the slice of dead future before it can continue on to
7600BC.
Lavos pulls Chronopolis
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
V ^
----[ o]--------------[ o]--------------[ o]---- (Another)
| 7600BC |1010AD 2400AD
| |
| duplicated |
V V
----[ o]---------[ o][ X]--------------[ X]---- (Home)
^ V
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Lavos pulls ruins
Caught by Prometheus in 1010AD
Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Serge's survival causes Chrono Trigger's Crono+co's effort against
Lavos to be nullified.
2. Home's Chronopolis in 7600BC is duplicated from Another, and no
longer requires one to exist in Home 2400AD for it to exist.
3. Prometheus intervenes by casting a time-net.
Supporting Evidence:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCENE: "COMPANY 2400" sign outside of Tower of Geddon.
It actually hints that the ruins belong to the year 2400AD.
Contradictory Evidence and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Scientific Fallacies and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Discussion
~~~~~~~~~~
POST-Q: "bubblebobby2000":
"you argue that history was duplicated. but if history was
really duplicated, then it must follow that chronopolis was
already pulled back in 7600ad from somewhere, and el nido
rebuilt and everything runs the same way. the future ruins
will not be pulled back again. i am repeating myself, but i'd
say again, lavos pull was already done in home world."
POST-A: "jason79":
"The problem here is that we don't know the nature of the
splitting of dimensions. As I see it, there's two
possibilities, identical from a certain point of view, but
different in their actual implementation."
"The first possibility is the branch. This is the idea that
Another and Home share the exact same 'physical' history or
timeline. In essence, Another is a single timeline until it
physically branches into two separate branches in 1010. In
this case, my time-net theory has to come into effect. We have
a single Lavos pulling on the future, but there's two futures,
so both answer the call and a slice from each comes flying
back to 7600. Another's Chronopolis has to be allowed to land,
but Home's Geddon cannot. Ergo, Prometheus intervenes, casts a
time-net, the Dead Sea is formed, Home's FATE is killed, the
paradox is averted, and the timeline is preserved."
"The other possibility is a complete duplication of Another's
history up until 1010, followed by a separation of the
diverging timelines. Rather than a single trunk and two
branches, we have two completely separate 'physical'
timelines, each now independent of the other. There's an
uncertainty here, that of how Lavos's summons is treated. If
it's treated as I've been thinking of it, then Chronopolis
will already be there but his summon will still pull part of
the future, and we're back to my time-net theory. However, if
it's treated as I believe Miguel's been thinking it has, then
Home's Lavos also has to pull a Chronopolis back in order to
keep Home's history identical to Another's. Ergo, Home's
future must end up identical to Another's."
Imagine this plane and flat pancake representing a point in time in the
Chrono Cross universe. Then if we stack up several slices of El Nido
pancakes of different times on top of each other, we get to see a
'timeline' like this:
-------------------- past
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
-------------------- future
The Sea of Eden or the Dead Sea is at one same place in the El Nido
seas. They exist in different dimensions, but they exist in the very
same location.
------------+-----+-
^
Sea of Eden (circular area)
Now let's imagine that we have the timeline from 7600BC up to 12400AD.
And let's draw it out by laying many slices of pancakes on top of each
other. Let's also mark out some of the major events in the timeline
necessary to explain this theory. For convenience sake, I have marked
out the areas inside and outside the Sea of Eden with a numbered label.
Once you can convince yourself that you can look at the timeline this
way, we can pretty much start discussing the gist of the theory:
In 2400AD, a counter-time experiment fails, Chronopolis (and Dinopolis)
was hurled back into the past. The counter-time experiment did
something to warp time and space, causing Chronopolis to appeared to
have been yanked back into the past.
Anytime before 2300AD, when someone from outside the Sea of Eden walks
into the Sea of Eden, he/she will go 10000 years into the future. When
someone from inside the Sea of Eden walks out from the Sea of Eden,
he/she will go back 10000 years into the past.
Anytime after 2400AD, when someone from outside the Sea of Eden walks
into the Sea of Eden, he/she will go 10000 years into the past. When
someone from inside the Sea of Eden walks out from the Sea of Eden,
he/she will go back 10000 years into the future.
Say for example, you are a research in Chronopolis 2400AD. If you walk
out of the Sea of Eden, you go back into 7600BC. If you live in 1010AD
and you walk into the Sea of Eden, you walk into 11010AD.
This applies to light, sound, and molecules and any other particles.
This is the formula:
Outside Inside
If X<2300AD X X+10000 years
If X>2400AD X X-10000 years
Since the space-time-fold affects light, then it 'appears' that
Chronopolis was pulled back in time this way:
As you can see, it looks as though the slices 01-09 inside the Sea of
Eden were 'exchanged' with the slices 11-19.
-01---------+11=C=+-
^ ^
| +---------- year inside Sea of Eden = 2400AD
|
+---------------------- year outside Sea of Eden = 7600BC
-11---------+01---+-
^ ^
| +---------- year inside Sea of Eden = 7600BC
|
+---------------------- year outside Sea of Eden = 2400AD
As I have said, the space-time-fold affects every smallest particle in
the world. So if an earthquake occurs here at slice #15,
-15---------+05---+-
it will affect slice #05 inside the Sea of Eden. The original
Chronopolis inside the Sea of Eden slice #15 is left unharmed.
In other words, no one from the future can 'see' Chronopolis existing,
except after slice #20. But this is beyond the discussion here.
Now, the above figure actually shows the Another World timeline. Let's
look at Home World's timeline. In Home World, Serge is killed by Lynx
but saved by Kid. Serge's survival is the key to the destruction of the
world. In particular, Serge wakes the Frozen Flame and binds or merges
with the Time Devourer. The Time Devourer completes its form, and
awakes somewhere in the future to devour time. In order to avoid
paradoxes of Serge not being able to live and hand the Frozen Flame
over to it, Time-Devourer awakes after 11010AD and swallows everything
into nothingness.
The key thing here is that space-time-fold does not affect the Time-
Devourer.
Thus, when the Time-Devourer consumes everything from 11010AD onwards,
all slices that belong after 11010AD (slice #18 onwards) disappears.
No more time exists after the year 11010AD. In addition to that, the
Time-Devourer also consumed the space after 11010AD. This should have
caused the slices #18-19 inside the Sea of Eden to be empty (Darkness
Beyond Time). But by some form of unexplained unstableness that
disallow the existence of 'emptiness' in the Sea of Eden, parts of what
the Time-Devourer swallowed gets sucked back into it, forming a mess of
things fused together to give us the Dead Sea.
Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Chronopolis is not physically pulled back. It only appears as though
it is pulled back, by means of a space-time-fold.
2. Serge merges with the Time Devourer and awakes in 11010AD to destroy
the world.
Supporting Evidence:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"It's because this is a future that was eliminated!"
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"A future that was destroyed even before it was born rests
here... condensed into the Dead Sea."
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"This lost future is about to disappear into the darkness
beyond the dimensions again..."
SCRIPT: Marle:
"The future destruction of our planet is going to become a
reality in this world once again..."
SCRIPT: Crono:
"With Serge serving as the trigger..."
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"But instead they became salt for the Dead Sea... You see,
only the chosen one can approach the Flame..."
SCRIPT: Radius:
"They were swallowed up by a terminated time line... and have
perished along with the Dead Sea..."
SCRIPT: Harle: (or any other character)
"It appears zat ze dimension itself iz more unstable here zan
elsewhere."
SCRIPT: Belthasar:
"As the mediator between Lavos and living things, that one
will gain extraordinary powers! By binding with the new seed
of destruction... the "Devourer of Time!" [snipped] The
Devourer of Time is a new life-form... Born out of the fusion
of a life-form from this planet with Lavos, who nests on the
far side of the dimensional void. In the far-off future, when
the fusion becomes complete, IT will awaken... Then, the
Devourer of Time will begin to consume all space-time
continua..."
Contradictory Evidence and Explanations:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCRIPT: Kid:
"Engulfed in an enormous dimensional vortex, Chronopolis was
hurled ten thousand years back in time."
EXPLAIN: The Chronopolis was 'hurled' back in time. It looks as
Though it was pulled back. In actual fact, it is still
where it was. But with the space-time-fold in effect,
it 'looks like' Chronopolis was yanked backwards in time.
SCRIPT: Kid:
"Perhaps it was the awakenin' Lavos who pulled the Frozen
Flame back through time to it."
EXPLAIN: 'Perhaps' is the keyword. Kid is only speculating. It might
have been true, it might have been otherwise. In either case,
it does not affect the basis of the space-time-fold theory.
Scientific Fallacies and Counter Explanations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
Discussion
~~~~~~~~~~
POST-Q: "jason79":
"Your idea would require that the ruins of CP in Home and the
intact CP in Another both exist up until at least 11020 (to
explain FATE's intervention in Home, to prevent the awakening
of Home's Flame), which is not very likely at all."
POST-A: "bubblebobby2000":
"i understand ur concerns about chronopolis existing from
2400ad to 11020ad. but we do not know what happens from 2400ad
to 11020ad. for all we know, either two things could have
happened. the area in 2400ad to 11020ad maps back into the
empty sea of eden, so this means that the people in the future
outside of the sea of eden will walk into the empty lagoon in
7600bc to 1020ad. as what my diagrams depict. or... the people
in the future outside of the sea of eden walk into the future
10000 years from where they were, into 12400ad to 21020ad. In
this theory it is not necessary to stick to either. because in
either case, the people in the future has no possibility of
interacting with the area inside sea of eden from 2400ad to
11020ad. i have repeated this a number of times, the only
entry point to 2400ad to 11020ad lies in 7600bc-1020ad.
photons, light, particles, and any other physical object
within the timeline will be affected by the space-time-fold.
even if there's anything they decide to build or destroy,
there's no way they can interact the true chronopolis from
2400ad-11020ad. everytime people from the future enter into
the sea of eden, they get mapped elsewhere. everytime light
enters from the future 2400ad-11020ad into the sea of eden, it
goes somewhere other than 2400ad-11020ad chronopolis, and
reflects off whatever that is inside, bounces back off back
into 2400ad-11020ad. they do not even see the real chronopolis
which is there."
POST-Q: "Miguel":
"We know that Serge defeats (or at least seperates) the Time
Devourer at the end. If this is so, he didn't merge right?
Therefore this means no bad future. Therefore, how was the
Dead Sea even there if the future it came from didn't exist?"
POST-A: "I understand your concerns with the Time-Devourer and Serge
finally not merging, and hence the dead sea should not be
there at all. I am going to go a little off here and making a
daring assumption. How many of us actually used the chrono
cross correctly on the time-devourer the first time round in
the game? Most of us will just kill it. There was *no*
indication in the game as to how the chrono cross should
specifically be used. None of the other characters even voiced
out any opinions on how the damn chrono cross worked. Not even
Belthasar. If there was an explanation, we can be sure that
the time-devourer will definitely be defeated. But there were
none. Therefore, the chances of serge merging with the time-
devourer is extremely high, in fact it almost certain, because
Serge/the player did not know how to use it..."
=======================================================================
7. Salt for the Dead Sea
=======================================================================
Was there ever a Frozen Flame in the Dead Sea or not?
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"It looks like Fate has made its decision and has started to
carry it out now... FATE doesn't want the Frozen Flame to
awaken in this place at this time... It would choose to
destroy the Flame along with the whole Dead Sea, than to allow
its enemies to take hold of the Flame..."
According to Miguel in Chrono Cross, it appears that the Frozen Flame
does exist in the Dead Sea. Because the FATE would have plausible
motive of destroying the Flame before Serge could get hold of it.
What happened when the Acacia Dragoons from Termina went into the Dead
Sea? Why did they become apparitions?
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"Three years ago, members of the Acacia Dragoons from Termina
visited here... Those knights were after the Frozen Flame, of
course. But instead they became salt for the Dead Sea... You
see, only the chosen one can approach the Flame..."
So far only a couple of theories have been proposed as to how the
Acacia Dragoons disappeared.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 1: The Dead Sea Absorbs Adventurers (by "Miguel")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
It is also possible that Robo wanted to protect the Flame from Viper,
Lynx and Porre. What better way to protect Home's Flame than to hide it
in a sea that slowly absorbs any adventurers that enter it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 2: Fluidity of the Dead Sea (by "bubblebobby2000")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
This theory assumes that Serge indirectly causes the Day of Lavos, or
the Time Devourer to awake somewhere in the future.
The Dead Sea is a highly unstable place. Call it 'fluid' if you wish.
If Serge decides not to approach the Frozen Flame, then the bleak
future will be unable to exist. And the Dead Sea will revert back to
the way it was, ie. Chronopolis.
Three years ago, in Home World, the Acacia Dragoons decided to approach
the Frozen Flame (remnants of the swallowed up Chronopolis ruins) in
the Dead Sea, they unconsciously was trying to prevent Serge from
accessing the Frozen Flame in Home World, in effect reducing the
chances the Time-Devourer from awakening in Home World. Hence the
dimension in the Dead Sea might have reverted to Chronopolis for a
while, crushing the bodies of the Acacia Dragoons with whatever that
came into existence for that short period of time. Once they were dead,
the Dead Sea reverts itself back to the dead future form.
=======================================================================
8. Dead Sea Evaporated
=======================================================================
Why did the Dead Sea evaporate? Did FATE destroy it? Or was it because
the watchman Miguel was killed?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 1: FATE destroyed the Dead Sea purposefully
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
FATE simply summoned its three forms, Past, Present, Future to tear
through time into Home's dimension to obliterate the Dead Sea. And
there's actually evidence to support this:
SCRIPT: Miguel:
"It looks like Fate has made its decision and has started to
carry it out now... FATE doesn't want the Frozen Flame to
awaken in this place at this time... It would choose to
destroy the Flame along with the whole Dead Sea, than to allow
its enemies to take hold of the Flame..."
SCRIPT: Dragon Gods:
"The 3 mutual powers that obliterated the Dead Sea. They are
none other than the God who decides the world's fate, the god
that rules mankind. 'FATE' For mankind to be mankind, for the
planet to be the planet. Thou who is bound by FATE, go now to
the Sea of Eden."
FMV: In the FMV where the Dead Sea disappears, you see three flames
bursting from the ground at three different points and
converging towards the center. The three points where the
flames come from are most likely the points of the three fate
distortions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 2: Miguel as a Guardian (by "Halbarad")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
When Serge died/lived, the space-time continnum in Home World was
changed; the Dead Sea, which was filled with a bit of space-time from
2400 AD/Another. When the future was changed by Serge's survival (to
the destroyed timeline of pre-defeat CT), that bit of space-time was
still drawn from 2400-the only problem was that instead of Chronopolis,
it drew bits of the ruined world of 2400 AD pre-defeat into Home World-
this would also explain why it was composed of random fragments of
buildings thrown together. I'm guessing that the draw would have been
temporary; it says that Miguel was set as the guardian of the Dead Sea
(he had previously been located in Chronopolis) with difficulty. I
admit it does not say what the difficulty was, but it could be that the
Dead Sea would dissipate without some sort of influence to hold it in
place. (pure speculation I know, but so is some of y'all's stuff.) Thus
when Miguel dies, there is no longer any influence holding the Dead Sea
together (remember, FATE still can't directly interact with Home, as it
has no access to the Flame yet); when Miguel dies, the Dead Sea
disperses as it would have done 10 years previously had it not had a
guardian.
=======================================================================
9. In The Unified Timeline
=======================================================================
What happens after Serge frees the Time Devourer with the Chrono Cross?
Will the time heal and unify? Or it won't? What happens after it
unifies? Will the future be saved from Lavos or the merged Time
Devourer? Or Lavos will still awake in 1999AD to destroy the world? Or
is there any other interesting things that might happen after that?
So far, there's not much theory floating around on the thread regarding
the unified timeline, except one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 1: Unified Timeline (by "skane")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, Serges' existence would have brought about the day of Lavos as he
enabled FATE access to the frozen flame, but remeber that after he does
this he became irrelevant to FATEs plan (she tries to kill him after
all). From this point on Serge existence ensures that Lavos will be
beaten.
Also, in the original time line (i.e. crono trigger), Schala was not
merged with Lavos (that only happened because stupid crono shoved a
sword in Lavos' eye). The entity threating the Chrono Cross world is
not Lavos but the Schala/Mammon Machine entity, so the ''Day of Lavos''
itself is no longer a threat because the creature responsible no-longer
exists. The references to it in Cronopolis come from Belthasars own
memory (as he says in Terra Tower he rbought knowledge of the past into
the future).
So the situation now is Lavos has become a different entity, and the
Day of Lavos had been replaced by the threat of the Time Devourer
destroying the timeline itself. Since Serge and co defeat the being in
the Tesseract, outside of time, the only affect it has on the timeline
is to remove the threat of the Time Devourer. Now, with FATE the
Dragons, and Schala/Mammon entity gone, there is nothing left to
threaten El Nido.
What does this have to do with the unified time line?
the worlds split because Schala reached out to Serge before she was
consumed by the Mammon Machine. By destroying that being Serge has also
destroyed the split in time, if Schala was rescued she didn't need to
call out, but she only called out because she needed rescuing... a
self-refrancing cycle starts. The two time lines will converge now much
like what was seen in the sea of Eden with a destroyed time line. Since
Serge is alive it must be Another World which is destroyed, but since
half his party came from there the destruction of that time line would
kill them. That cannot happen so the only other alternative is for a
new line to start (from the point where Kid saves Serge, 1010) which
includes everyone recruited into the party. So in this line, the
Dragoons will not be dead, BUT Dario will still have been possessed by
the Masamune in place of Garai, who will have died just as he did in
the original home time line. The only people who would have any clue
that the changes were there would be those who fought alongside Serge
and each one of them would have a place in the new time-line.
For ewxample, Orlha may go home to find Tia still alive or the faerie
village would not have been destroyed by the dwarves etc. This also
means that the Dragon gods would still exist in thier split forms
though. That happened before the timeline was first split.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theory 2: Radical Dreamers Timeline (by "Miguel")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
I believe that the timeline that results from Another and Home merging
is the world of Radical Dreamers. Now this has been dismissed before,
due to the following reason: The diary in Chronopolis mentioned RD, yet
it was written before the RD world would have taken place.
However, I believe otherwise. That diary? I think it was Belthasar's.
This is possible - he lived in 2300, and the diary (from 2400AD)
mentions "grandfather's closet." Now, all we heard of the diary was a
little bit of RD's opening text but I have a sneaking suspicion that
Belthasar had written "instructions" of some sort within that journal
that wasn't included in the computer records. These "instructions"
would naturally involve his descendant going to CP and direct/influence
the order of things within Cp to lead up to the world which Belthasar
could only have envisioned...
Now I know there is a lot of controvosy over whether B can see the
future or not, but remember - He has been in contact with the Flame.
And Schala (with the powers of Lavos) is within the Flame. Use your
imagination people...! Surely Belthasar couldn't have pulled off this
whole escapede without help from other sources?
Discussion
~~~~~~~~~~
None for the moment.
=======================================================================
10. Other Theories
=======================================================================
There were also some other theories brought up in the Dead Sea / Sea of
Eden threads that area not related to the Dead Sea and might be too
wasteful to let them go deleted. So I put them up here.
We all know what inertia is, right? It's the tendency of an object to
remain either at rest or in motion. But this is a little bit different
a notion. Current physics, relativity, and quantum mechanics have given
us a much better view of the universe itself, and have revealed a few
peculiar aspects of our universe.
We live in what's called a space-time continuum, three 'dimensions' of
space, one 'dimension' of time. I don't remember the exact details, and
I certainly don't want to try to get into them here, but there is
evidence that space and time are like two sides of the same coin. There
are certain aspects of space which have a corresponding temporal
equivalent, and vice versa. This gave me the idea that, if we have
spatial inertia, why not temporal inertia? With that question in mind,
let's re-examine the sequence of events I fondly call 'The Marle
Paradox.'
1000AD: Crono meets Marle. Marle has pendant. Pendant messes with
Telepods, opens a Time Gate, and Marle lands in 600 AD.
Let's follow her for a moment. Sometime after she arrives, Guardia
soldiers find her, mistake her for the missing Queen Leene, call off
their search for the queen, and take Marle back to the Castle. This is
the catalyst for the paradox, because the moment the soldiers find
Marle and call off the search, history has been changed. We can easily
conjecture the outcome: Leene is not found, Leene dies before bearing
children, thus no descendants, and thus no ancestors for Marle.
Thus no Marle. Uh oh. Which now means Crono doesn't meet her, her
pendant doesn't interfere with the Telepods, Marle doesn't travel back
in time (since she no longer exists at this point), the search for
Leene is then not called off, and we're back to the original history in
which Leene is found and eventually bears children. This is an infinity
loop; because of its very nature, this sequence will oscillate back and
forth between past and present forever. Not good.
Fortunately, this is not how things worked out. We know from playing
the game that Crono and Lucca work to restore the original history, and
they are successful.
The problem, though, is the logic here. All three of the children
landed in 600 AD as a direct result of Marle's pendant. Keep in mind
that had the pendant not been involved, none of them would have ever
seen 600 AD. But when history is suddenly changed, only Marle is
affected.
Some people have argued that this is because only Marle was a
descendant of Leene. This is logically unsound. We're dealing with time
travel here, not genetics, and until we have evidence to the contrary,
logic is the only way to approach this.
That in mind, logic dictates that not only should Marle disappear from
600 AD, but so should Crono and Lucca! Yet they don't. Why not? It's
because of Marle that they're there in the first place. If she's no
longer born in the future, then the pendant would never have been
brought near the Telepods, and the Gate would never have formed.
Obviously, Crono and Lucca don't disappear. So, working from the
assumption that this is a valid story, there has to be some explanation
for why they didn't disappear.
The answer is temporal inertia. Remember that Marle arrived before
Crono, who arrived before Lucca. Also, remember that Marle was born in
approximately 984 AD, while Crono and Lucca only recently were affected
by her presence. This means that, when Marle accidentally changes
history, she will be affected by the time change sooner than Crono and
Lucca.
My theory is that Crono and Lucca would have disappeared, but they
restored history before that happened. Temporal inertia explains how
they were able to remain in 600 AD long enough to correct the timeline.
If we were to witness Marle's departure from 1000, after however long
it took for the soldiers to find her and call off their search, we
would see an instantaneous change in 1000, because as far as 1000 is
concerned, 600 is done and gone. But from 600's point of view, the time
change is yet to occur. Because Crono, Marle, and Lucca are in the
past, they are not affected by the time change right away. But as I
said above, they will be affected, and Marle is affected first, because
she is directly related to Leene.
Imagine the time change as a linear event, passing through the four
centuries between 600 and 1000. We would see it reaching Marle's birth
before it reached the moment her pendant influenced the Telepods. This
explains why Crono and Lucca didn't disappear right when Marle did. Of
course, if we waited around long enough, we'd see Crono disappear too,
and a moment later Lucca.
However, while the time change is changing history, Crono and Lucca
have however long it takes for the change to travel from Marle's birth
to when she met Crono to restore history. Otherwise, they'll get stuck
in an infinity loop. If we're vague enough about the amount of time
Marle spent in 600 before Crono arrived, and about the amount of time
it takes for Crono and Lucca to find Marle and then rescue Leene, they
have enough time to find Leene and restore history before the time
change erases Marle's influence in 1000 AD. Once the timeline is
restored, the paradox is no longer a threat, which means neither Crono
nor Lucca will disappear, and which means Marle should reappear, just
as she did in Trigger.
The idea of Crono, Marle, and Lucca lasting for an unspecified amount
of time and then disappearing, as opposed to disappearing
instantaneously, is my idea of temporal inertia. They effectively
resist the change in their temporal momentum, but they ultimately can't
resist the change.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The True Use of the Dragon Emblem (by "One That Was")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
At the part where Harle is just about to leave your party, when she's
talking to you at the Pearly Gates (or the entrance to the Sea of
Eden), she says that You can't get into the Sea of Eden in Lynx's body.
She also says that the "Real" entrance to the Sea of Eden is through
the Dead Sea. So then Harle says that in order for you to get in, you
should seek the Dragon Gods' blessing.
Now, this is My own take on the matter:
You need Each Artifact from the 6 Dragons, the Dragon Emblem, And the
Dragon Tear In order for you to get Your own body, which is the REAL
key to get into the Sea of Eden.
The Dragon Tear looks suprisingly like the floor plan of the topmost
Room in Fort Dragonia. Each Artifact you get from a Dragon corresponds
to a Dragon Statue in Fort Dragonia. If you have all these, and you
have the Dragon Tear placed on the central Pedestal, then WOW, you have
some funky Dragonian Magic which transforms you into Your real body,
which in turn, is the Key to the Sea of Eden.
So Harle is basically sending you on a quest to get your real body
back, she just doesn't let you know it from the start. The Dragon's
Blessing isn't really the key to the Sea of Eden, they're just the Key
to getting your body back and YOUR the key to the Sea of Eden.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kid/Lucca in Home Theory (by "Miguel")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
~~~~~~~~~~~
I do not believe that Kid is dead in Home. Instead I believe that she
and Lucca are quitely continuing their lives on the Zenan Mainland
without ever meeting an El Nidian. The same holds for the unified
dimension, since Serge is alive. (This a good reason for Kid's
existence straight off, because the ghost said that Kid will travel
back from the future -1030AD- to save Serge by split the timelines in
the first place. How could she do that if she wasn't alive? I'm talking
about the unified world here BTW)
Okay, in Another Serge died. Accidently, because no way would Lynx kill
off the Arbiter in his own body. When Serge died, Lynx decided to try a
different method and that was the interragation of Lucca.
But in Home, Serge survived. So Lynx may not have had to resort to such
means, he may just have been planning to snatch Serge's body.
Reasons why he didn't and left in 1017 on a suicide mission to the Dead
Sea?
#1. Wazuki's good side may have been fighting back, much like Khan with
Grahf.
#2. He may have decided not to go adventuring in Serge's body until it
was more muscular and less weak.
#3. Harle may have stopped him. Remember, it is not in her interest to
see Lynx gain control of the Flame. (she's a Dragon God)
#4. Maybe after that first attempt, the Dead Sea was created
instantaneously. Thus Serge's body wouldn't help anymore (Dead Sea
would absorb it). And in any case? Home's FATE is destroyed, meaning
Home's Lynx has lost his purpose. (No, I do not believe he knew about
the dimensions. The only way he could know is if he went to Chronopolis
and that is off-limits in Home.)
My point being:
If any of the above is true/bearing resemblance to CC, then there might
be no need to Lynx to shanghai Lucca.
And as Serge is alive in the unified world, what holds in Home holds in
there.
Lucca is alive... That'll make the vets happy...
=======================================================================
11. Other Discussions
=======================================================================
There are many little, little discussions popping up all over the Dead
Sea / Sea of Eden thread relating to the story of Chrono Cross. Let's
organize them neatly.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Two Moons
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- "Miguel":
"What's all this about a Dark Moon?"
- "skane":
"The Dark Moon was created by the Dragon gods when Schala broke FATES
link with the flame. The created it so that they could directly
influence events (since no-one outside of Guldove believes in the
much anymore)."
- "bubblebobby2000":
"I seriously*3 believe that the Dark Moon was not created in
1003AD/1006AD/1010AD. for the very simple reason that it's gonna
scare the hell out of every one who lived in El Nido and in the
entire world! and everyone would talk about it! but no... no one in
the game ever mentioned the Dark Moon suddenly appearing 17/14/10
years ago. it was as though, it was a part of life! only Belthasar,
he only mentioned that there were two moons, but he never mentioned
when it was created.
"but yes, Harle, the Dark Moon Dragon, (not the Dark Moon) was
created when the Dragons seal broke off for a while in 1006AD. She
became the ''moon-reader'' (Tsukuyomi, her japanese name), to free
the dragons from FATE's bondage.
"my guess is that the Dark Moon was created long long ago, by when
Dinopolis was pulled over from the Reptites timeline, the dimension
merging spawned off another moon. this was said by the scenario
designer... personally, i have to believe him."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Dreamstone
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "Captain Pmp":
"In conclusion, the Dream stones or Red Rocks or whatever are also
splinters of Lavos.."
-- "Miguel":
"Captain Pmp, as far as we know, Dreamstone was at least found on
the planet in 65,000,000BC, before Lavos landed. If they are
splinters of Lavos, how exactly do you explain this?"
-- "Miguel":
"couldn't we SEE LAVOS, the red star, from Tyrano Lair and where the
Pteradactyls are? Couldn't the, um, Dreamstones FALLEN from Lavos,
like Meteors fall?"
-- "jason79":
"We're talking about a creature that naturally warps spacetime, in a
universe with time travel at that, so there's always the obvious
copout of saying the Dreamstone traveled back in time."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Entity"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "jason79":
"Considering the circumstances surrounding the discussions of the
'Entity' and the fact that Schala has merged with Lavos to form a
powerful entity called the Time Devourer outside of time, it's
possible that Schala is now the Entity."
-- "bubblebobby2000":
"i am inclined to believe that the Entity is the Planet. considering
the developer's point of view, they did not take into consideration
Schala's disappeared when they finished CT, so in their minds, the
TD never existed. secondly, the catch-phrase penned by squaresoft
saying that the ''planet's dream has not yet ended'' convinces me to
think that the Entity was the Planet."
-- "jason79":
"As for the Entity, the evidence points more towards Schala/TD
rather than the Planet. Remember, the planet 'views' humans in a
negative light, yet if the Entity is somehow responsible for Crono's
travels through time, as Robo speculated, then the Planet makes no
sense. It does make sense, however, if the Entity is Schala. She
would have a clear reason for helping Crono and friends; it also
adds a twist to Lucca's red portal, sort of Schala's way of saying
thanks ahead of time for raising Kid in the future."
"Of course we could all be wrong. It could just be the gamer, a joke
thrown in by Square, but if that's all it was, what was the point?
Anyway, I'm saying the Entity is far more likely to be Schala than
either Lavos or the Planet."
-- "Magnus210":
"btw, I have a feeling the ''entity'' meant to be the player...with
a secondary meaning of being the planet, and not the TD merge
w/Schala, simply because that being wasn't created by the Square
developers yet and they didn't know about that being."
======================================================================
12. A Proposed Story Outline
=======================================================================
Even with the numerous discussions and theories raised, there are still
many questions that have been left unanswered in the game of Chrono
Cross. So I have come up with this little outline with the detailed
descriptions of what I think really happened along the way. This
outline has undergone many revisions before coming to this version you
see here.
Please note that this is only a theory! I might have just brought up
more questions that I tried to address. So, read with an open mind!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Outline (by "bubblebobby2000")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1999AD
Day of Lavos. When Lavos emerged from the face of the earth, he was
destroyed by Crono and company. And a piece of him subsequently fell
into the El Nido seas. After Lavos was destroyed, he fell through the a
dimensional vortex into Darkness of Time. There, Lavos found Schala and
merged with her, forming the Time Devourer.
2300AD
Belthasar, the sage of reason arrived here, the bright future after the
Ocean Palace disaster in Zeal Kingdom in 12000BC. A piece of the Frozen
Flame was discovered by Belthasar in the El Nido sea after he detected
a strong gravitational pull in that area. He came into contact with the
Frozen Flame and consequently connected with the Time-Devourer. Through
this connection, he learnt that the Time-Devourer is a combination of
Schala and the Lavos that was defeated in 1999ad by Crono. He also
learnt of the intention of the Time-Devourer to destroy everything and
return it to nothingness. But he also learnt that Schala did not want
that to happen and wanted to world to be saved.
>From there, Belthasar created the Neo-Epoch and jumped around in time
to search for a way to defeat the Time-Devourer. He needs a weapon to
destroy the Time-Devourer, and if possible, release Schala from it.
He finally chanced upon an alternate dimension, the Reptites dimension
and heard of this technology called the Chrono Cross. It had the power
to transfer memories, and heal enmity and hatred. In summary, it was
the perfect weapon to be used against the Time Devourer. The Chrono
Cross was under the possession of the Dragon God, the living bio-
machine that resided in the Reptites future city, Dinopolis. Granted,
Belthasar could have just stolen the Chrono Cross back into this world,
but he could not. The reason was that the Chrono Cross required the
powers of the Dragon God to work properly.
Through the Flame, Belthasar connected to Time-Devourer and told Schala
of the Chrono Cross. But he would be unable to use it unless the Dragon
was also present. Through it, he was advised to make use of the power
of the Frozen Flame to pull Dinopolis over. Unknown to Belthasar,
however, was that the Lavos part of the Time-Devourer also wanted
Belthasar to make use of the power of the Flame, so that it could pull
the Frozen Flame back in time towards its awakening self in 12000BC. If
it succeeds, that Lavos in 12000BC would have much more power than it
originally had, and be able to completely destroy the world then, and
not have to wait until 1999AD.
So Belthasar came up with a plan. But to use the power of the Frozen
Flame to pull Dinopolis into the humans' dimension, he would need a
machine to be able to control the flame without supervision.
Hence, the building of Chronopolis, the Time-Fortress research center,
and a superpower computer, the artificially intelligent machine whose
sole purpose was to control the flame was planned.
Belthasar also made sure that Chronopolis would be properly equipped to
handle Dinopolis when it arrives, so he arms it with firepower and
high-tech weaponry. He intends to bring down Dinopolis, but without
killing the Dragon God. The AI supercomputer was also programmed such
that it would not kill the Dragon God, maintain their presence so that
the Chrono Cross can be used.
2400AD
Chronopolis is established and the supercomputer is built completely.
Belthasar time-skips into from 2300AD here and organizes experiments to
test the control of the Flame. The final one, under the guise of a
time-counter experiment was meant to do one thing: to rip across
dimensions and pull Dinopolis from 2400AD Reptites line over to 2400AD
Humans line.
However, as the Flame rips through the dimensions into the Reptite's
timeline, Chronopolis itself became entangled in the vortex. Both
Schala's and Lavo's wishes were acting through the Flame. Dinopolis
gets yanked to the human's timeline, Chronopolis gets yanked from where
backwards towards the Lavos in 12000BC. At the same time, the Planet
also exploited the dimensional vortex and yanked the Dinopolis
backwards to counter-balance Chronopolis. Fortunately, the dimensional
vortex was switched off by the AI supercomputer before Chronopolis
could even end up in 12000BC. Hence both Dinopolis and Chronopolis
ended up in 7600BC in the human's timeline. The yanking was beyond
Belthasar's expectations.
7600BC
A huge battle between Chronopolis and Dinopolis ensued. Chronopolis
obviously won because it was prepared. The Dragon God was defeated. The
AI supercomputer was designed not to kill the Dragon God completely, so
instead it divided them up into six smaller Dragon Gods to weaken them.
The supercomputer borrowed the Frozen Flame's power and sealed the
Dragons to prevent them from completely merging again. If the AI
supercomputer dies, or its system's are disrupted, the seal can get
disrupted.
Unknown to FATE or Belthasar, the seal of the Frozen Flame consumed the
weakened Dragon God, assimilating with the Time Devourer. Fortunately,
its will still survived and it extended from the Time Devourer, and it
projected itself as a physical form, although it was really a quasi-
existence. Hence, the Dragon God was really a will, whose judgment and
mind were partially influenced by the Time Devourer.
The researchers do not know the real motive of Belthasar. And now,
realizing that they were now caught up in the past, decided to move out
and build El Nido, to ensure Chronopolis's safety. The AI supercomputer
was renamed FATE, specifically so that it would guide the El Nidons the
way that would benefit Chronopolis's own survival. A religion was
created to allow the El Nidons to worship FATE as a goddess, but in
actual fact, theirs lives were constantly influenced and guided like
pawns. Chronopolis was sealed behind Death's door by FATE's power.
Survivors in Dinopolis came out also to cultivate their own Dragonian
race. The real Chrono Cross was shattered in the fierce by Chronopolis.
But the pieces were picked up and a weaker version of it was formed.
Then on, it was known as the Dragon Tear.
The bringing of Dinopolis over also brought the red moon from that
dimension over. Hence the world has two moons since 7600BC.
At this point in time, the Lavos part of the Time Devourer failed; the
Frozen Flame could not reach the awakening Lavos in 12000BC. So the
Time Devourer could only wait.
????AD
In some unspecified time, the Dragonians built Fort Dragonia and other
structures. The Dragonians also forged the legendary sword, Elranzer.
But FATE, fearing a rebellion from the much hi-tech Dragonians, ordered
a massive war between the humans and the Dragonians. The Dragonians
were consequently wiped them out from existence. FATE erased memories
of the war from the humans to hide its true purpose, hence there was no
such record in history. The Dragon Tear was passed down to the Guldove
Shamans before the last of the Dragonians died.
Soon after, most of the Dragonian ruins were also purposefully
destroyed. The only one that remained was Fort Dragonia, which no
humans could go through as it was protected behind the volcanic Mount
Pyre. Hence it remained intact after many years.
1003AD
Serge was born to Wazuki and Marge. Kid/Harle created here.
1006AD
Serge was bitten by a panther demon. Wazuki, Miguel brought Serge in
their boat and searched around El Nido for help. But they could find
none. Schala, who heard Serge's cries through time, interferes across
time through the Frozen Flame. Her interference caused a magnetic storm
that shuts off FATE's system. In addition, the seal on Death's door
opened, and Wazuki, Serge and Miguel entered Chronopolis. There, Schala
and Lavos, through the Frozen Flame called out to Serge. Wazuki then
brings Serge to the Flame, and his body was healed from the bite.
With this, Serge inherited the powers of the Frozen Flame and became
the Arbiter. From then on, he was the chosen one who could decide who
wins, Schala or Lavos. In order for Lavos to win, Serge would have to
merge his body (holding the powers of the Flame) with the Time-
Devourer. In order for Schala to win, Serge would have to use the
Chrono Cross against the Time-Devourer.
At this time, too, Wazuki's mind began to corrupt under the influence
of the Flame. Part of FATE started to reboot and exploited Wazuki's
weaknesses and transferred part of itself in. Before FATE could
entirely get back online and seal them behind Death's Door in
Chronpolis, Wazuki left Chronopolis and send Serge home. But after a
while, his mind completely gave way and became consumed by FATE. FATE
turned him into Lynx, a cat demihuman to model after Serge's panther
fear.
At the same time, Kid was created by Schala and sent to 1003AD. The
Dragons (Time Devourer) also took the opportunity opened up by the
temporary disruption on FATE's seal to create the seventh dragon based
on Schala's DNA. The seventh dragon, was named Harle.
1010AD
This is where time splits into two. The entire timeline becomes split
up into two. And consequently, the histories of the two worlds were
completely duplicated.
----------------------
SPLIT ANOTHER
----------------------
In this world, FATE has full control of the events happening in the
world.
1010AD
Serge was killed by Lynx. And the Sea of Eden remains as Chronopolis.
Unspecified gates appeared in the world.
FATE peered through the gates and discovered that a duplicate of this
world existed. It discovered that FATE in the other did not exist there
anymore. FATE bound Miguel to overlook the events in the other world.
The Dragons also peered through the unspecified gates to find out what
was on the other side of the world. They discovered that FATE on the
duplicate world disappeared and their seven Dragon counterparts
disappeared into the Dead Sea.
Both FATE and the Dragons knew one thing. A copy of Frozen Flame was
still in the Home World Dead Sea, and both of them wanted it. FATE
could not act because it had no control of the world. The Dragons could
not act because they knew that from their counterparts that approaching
the Flame would kill them. So they wait.
1020AD
Belthasar jumped here to overlook events.
Serge crossed dimensions.
Lynx switches bodies with Serge to try to unlock the Flame. Lynx sacked
Another Harle. Another Harle approaches Serge. There was still another
way to obtain the Frozen Flame, albeit being dangerous. It was to bring
Serge into the Home Dead Sea.
----------------------
SPLIT HOME
----------------------
In this world, FATE had no control of the events happening in the
world. Home FATE was dead. Another FATE could only look at Home World
through the eyes of watchman Miguel.
1010AD
Serge was almost killed by Lynx. Kid jumps back in time from Another
World from 1020AD to save Serge. Then she jumps back to Another World
again.
Here, the Sea of Eden becomes the Dead Sea.
The seven Dragons, including Harle, without FATE's seal to hold them
back merges together and heads to the Sea of Eden to steal the Frozen
Flame. But as they approached the Flame in the Dead Sea, they become
swallowed up by the Dead Sea and got completely assimilated into the
Time Devourer.
Soon after, half the Dragons from Another World crossed over and lived
there. And Miguel was placed Guardian of the Dead Sea to overlook
events in Home World and report them back to FATE in another world.
FATE has no control of events in this world.
Both Another FATE and the Another Dragons knew one thing. A copy of
Frozen Flame was still in the Home World Dead Sea, and both of them
wanted it. FATE could not act because it had no control of the world.
The Dragons could not act because they knew that from their Home
counterparts that approaching the Flame would kill them. So they wait.
1017AD
Lynx and the Acacia Dragoons got swallowed up by the Dead Sea.
1020AD
Belthasar?
Serge crossed dimensions.
Harle leaves Lynx after being sacked and leads Serge into the Dead Sea.
Soon after, Serge reconstructed his body based on the form he lost to
Lynx. And once again, his body became that of the Arbiter.
Finally, holding the six Dragon Relics and the powers of the Frozen
Flame, only Serge could control the Chrono Cross. Using these powers,
he destroyed the Time Devourer and freed Schala.
There are several points that I have addressed in this theory.
1. This outline explains why Belthasar knew so many things, especially
matters pertaining to the Time Devourer.
2. Belthasar planned the whole thing so that he could get the Chrono
Cross. But he did not do it at the expense of using El Nidons as
pawns. The pulling back of Dinopolis and Chronopolis was
unexpected.
3. Coincidence. The Time-Crash caused the dimensions to rip apart. And
the Planet pulled Dinopolis back and Lavos pulled Chronopolis back.
Then the Dragonians created the Dragon Tear. And time split,
Forming two Dragon Tears, thus Serge is able to get the Chrono
Cross. There's too much coincidence here for Belthasar to have
'planned' the Time Crash. This outline neatly does away with the
coincidences, yet still keeps in line with game evidence.
4. If Belthasar planned everything, that only means he did know that
the Chrono Cross existed in the Reptites line. Why did he not just
steal the Chrono Cross over using his Neo-Epoch? This outline also
answers that.
5. How the Dragons were consumed by the Time Devourer. The Frozen
Flame's seal did it.
6. The origin of Fort Dragonia, and how the Dragonians were pushed to
extinction.
7. Harle's appearance/fortune. Harle was copied of the Time Devourer,
ie. Schala's DNA.
8. How Wazuki+Miguel+Serge got into Chronopolis through Death's door.
This was not addressed in the game, but addressed in this outline.
9. How the six dragons and Harle in one world disappeared.
10. How Lynx disappeared.
11. How only Serge is able to control the Chrono Cross.
12. Why Harle left Lynx and joined Serge midway during his journey.
The numerous theories only show how much loopholes were left opened in
the game in Chrono Cross. Chrono Cross is still a good game. While it
has been interesting discussing them on GameFAQs, there were just too
many things to cover. Let's hope that the next Chrono game will be
better.
Until then, I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as all of us on the
Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread have enjoyed discussing it. It was more fun
than playing the game itself.
I apologize if I have made this FAQ look like a thesis and too boring
to read. But that's how I write. :)
Finally, no one is obligated to believe any of the theories presented
in this FAQ. If you have any better theories or suggestions, you can
always post them up the GameFAQs for public discussion.
